May 9, 2024

Refs Need Love Too

David Gerson is a soccer referee who provides an honest perspective from the 3rd team on the pitch... Through humor, analysis and education, his podcast is changing how people view referees and officials in all sports. His goal is that the podcast inspires, educates and humanizes the next generation of referees for their own development and appreciation from the players, coaches and spectators they need to work alongside.

In this episode, you will hear about David's journey to becoming a soccer official, stories of parental behaviour towards youth (players and officials) at sporting events, and the difference between the laws of soccer and the rules of soccer. We also talk about the possibility of a "blue card" being introduced, how to calculate "add on" time, and why you don't see too many officials using headsets to communicate in North America.

David also has some excellent socials you should follow including his TikTok, Instagram and Facebook - and of course his podcast which you can find here.

You can support David and the Refs Need Love Community by purchasing some useful merch.

Transcript

Matt Cundill  0:01  
You May Also Like a show about the things you may also like, things like Refs Need Love Too. David Gerson is the host of Refs Need Love Too a podcast that discusses the ups and downs of officiating soccer. Oh, boy, it's football stupid. Okay, yes, you're right. But we don't have time for this right now. Just Just stay with me. David never meant to start a podcast. What started as a TikTok channel designed to take time to explain the rules of soccer to the uninformed, became an Instagram outing, a YouTube channel and later, a podcast called Refs Need Love Too, David joins me from Atlanta, Georgia. And naturally, this all starts out by putting on a pair of boots and taken to the pitch.

David Gerson  0:55  
Well, I played recreational as a kid, you know, and to uh, I guess preteen little after teen and then I played some adult league as well, what they call men's league or Sunday League. 

Matt Cundill  1:06  
So when and why did you want to become a soccer official? 

David Gerson  1:10  
Well, I've always been a glutton for punishment. Literally my entire life. I always seem to find myself into positions of responsibility, whether it was, you know, student government leadership and corporate life. I played rugby in college, I was a division one rugby player, was a team captain and then again, team president in college. So I'm always kind of gravitating to those roles where, you know, I want to be responsible, you know, if no one else has raised their hand, I will last jury I served on how to be the foreman of the jury. Just everyone was quiet. I was like, Alright, I got this. It's just kind of who I am. 

Matt Cundill  1:45  
And so how long have you been a soccer official? 

David Gerson  1:49  
I am coming into about my 11th year right now. I did a few informally I we lived overseas for a while. So before I got certified here in America, and now I've been certified as a US Soccer official for over 10 years. 

Matt Cundill  2:03  
So you said overseas Why were you overseas? 

David Gerson  2:06  
I had a wonderful opportunity to take my wife, two dogs, three kids to go live in the Netherlands. And I was responsible for Europe, Middle East and Africa for about two years, which was a blast. And that's really where my family fell head over heels in love with the beautiful game. 

Matt Cundill  2:24  
Did you pick up a team while you were there? To cheer for...

David Gerson  2:28  
Many, many teams, many teams, we lived in the Netherlands. So we we fell in love with the Dutch, you know, the raw the orange. So that was a nation that we gathered. But I also picked up club teams. I had a Premier League team Manchester United, which this is the reason why they haven't won a Premier League title since 2013. Is because that's when I became a fan. And I have cursed them ever since. But I'm Barcelona over Real Madrid, our local Dutch team was Utrecht. So we picked up a number of teams while we were there. 

Matt Cundill  3:00  
Why would you pick Barcelona over Real Madrid? 

David Gerson  3:03  
Huge, Messi fan. I mean, just massive justice. If if you do not enjoy that, man, I just I don't get you. I'm not sure if we can be friends. 

Matt Cundill  3:11  
I have a theory that why do you like this particular football team. It doesn't matter if it's whatever sport but it's generally like the first game you go to. And the first game I went to was a Barcelona match in 2018. It was La Liga and Messi got three goals. So it's going to be really tough not to cheer for Barcelona going forward. 

David Gerson  3:28  
Yeah, and that's actually how I became a Manchester United fan. One of the guys who worked for me was a man you fan took me to Old Trafford. I went there was like, Okay, this is gonna be my team. And then it was all downhill from there. 

Matt Cundill  3:41  
You come back to the United States, and you pick up some soccer, maybe you're playing in the Sunday League, but you're going to officiate soccer now.

David Gerson  3:48  
That occurred because my son wanted to officiate. So my my son also is an old soul. And he was definitely mature for his years and still is very mature for his years. But when we came back from the Netherlands, he was 10 years old. And at that time, at that time, in 2013 2014, you could get become a referee, a certified ref in this country at 10 years old, which to me is absolutely mind boggling now that I think about and I look at 10 year olds and think about well, how can they actually be out on the pitch, you know, refereeing matches, but he wanted to do it, and I well, I played rugby in college, but I also became a certified rugby referee as well. And so you know, it's like, it just kind of fits and so okay, if I'm taking him to games and he wants to start earning money. Well, I'm gonna go to and I'll rough alongside him and so we crewed together for about eight and a half years straight, and it was wonderful. It was absolutely fantastic. But that's how I got, I got started. It was really because he wanted to get started and if I'm going to bring him there, I'll do it too. 

Matt Cundill  4:49  
So in those early years when you're doing it, what are you seeing that opened your eyes a little bit?  

David Gerson  4:57  
What really blows me away is just generally how people lose perspective at sporting events. And that's kind of why we love it. Right? Because it's a release. You know, it's this emotional connection that you have, unlike anything else that we have in our normal daily life. And that's wonderful. And that's, that's why we love sport, right? I mean, that's why we love sport. It's it takes us away and, and we're elated and have all these wonderful feelings. But unfortunately, at youth sporting events, at youth sporting events, sometimes, I hate to say sometimes it's actually quite common these days, a lot of that energy gets directed towards the referee in a negative way, where the referee is the villain, and they are the ones who are, you know, somehow causing my daughter or son's team to lose, and there winds up being a lot of vitriol sent their way that they're actually considered to be a villain. And that's part of the reason why I've started doing what I do is to try and humanize the referee, we would never allow a parent on the sideline to scream negative things at a child on the pitch, you know, one of them wearing an actual like soccer Jersey like they're playing. But if it's a child wearing a referee jersey, or an adult wearing a referee jersey, well, then it's fair game, you could say whatever you want, you could threaten their their physical safety. And people just consider that commonplace. And that's, it's really concerning, to say the least.

Matt Cundill  6:27  
And I'm always surprised and I'm not surprised really, how little the parents know about the rules of the game. And I think he had a really good example, that you cited in one of your video pieces, whether it was on Instagram or Tik Tok. And I'm not sure if it was a game you were doing but a player gets injured, and goes down, not a head injury, but the play continues. And parents fans go ballistic. And as an official, you're sitting there going, like, game keeps going until something happens. And you know, maybe that's why we also see some common courtesy were one of the teams will just kick it out of bounds and maybe get the ball thrown back on the return the favor. It's still a player's game. But as an official, I don't know how you stop and explain to people I can't stop the game. It's not a head injury. We're just going to wait this out.

David Gerson  7:13  
Yeah, no, I would be the first one. So this was my match, I was centering that game. It's the last minute of it high school game with a one goal difference. And what makes, you know, soccer and rugby and some of these other games very different is that there are not traditionally lots of stoppages of play that we keep on continuing. And it's hard to score goals. It's a low scoring game. So when there is a promising attack, and someone goes down, the only time we stop it is if we know it's a serious injury. And again, I'm not a I'm not superhuman, I'm not a doctor, I can't look over and know, okay, that's serious or not. But generally, you know, if there's a collision, if someone is in severe pain, and you can tell something bad has happened, I'm going to stop it immediately, no matter what, or if it's a head injury, I stop it immediately. But soccer is a game, where sometimes people just get, you know, a little bit upset, and maybe they just fall down because they have a cramp or they're injured, quote unquote, but they're not really injured. You know, and because that happens, you know, we try and just continue if it's not serious, it's nothing life threatening, you know, there's nothing that immediate attention when necessarily due to that person, they got a cramp. You know, maybe they just got a little bit of the wind knocked out, and we continue play until it was a natural stoppage, or there's no longer promising attack. And I had that happen in my game. And people were screaming at me, I mean, yelling at me, like calling me really bad names, like very upset. And I'm sorry, like, that is one of the things that makes the beautiful game soccer, different from sports, like American football, where there's a whistle every five seconds. Sometimes there could not be a whistle or a stoppage for four or five minutes straight in the game of soccer, it's a different thing. So that lack of understanding from a lot of parents who maybe didn't play the game growing up, you know, carries over into the misunderstandings they have with referees who are roughing their kids now.

Matt Cundill  9:02  
One of the things that really struck me about when you're explaining things is how you use the word laws instead of rules. So we don't talk about the rules of the game. The NFL has a rules committee, let's talk about the rules. But you are always these are the laws of the game. Where did you pick that up? Is that a thing? What have I missed?

David Gerson  9:20  
Yeah, so the actual Laws of the Game written by the International Football Association, and they're called Laws of the Game. It's different from local rules of competition. So every league has some local loose rules regarding substitutions or you know, things like that the time they're going to play in a half or things like that. But the Laws of the Game the overarching laws, you know, again, what is the direct free kick offense? What's an indirect free kick offense? What would be a yellow card offense or a red card offence, things like that. Those are actually called laws. And so when you hear someone actually use the language from the Laws of the Game, that should be a telltale sign. There's probably actually read them when someone says that's not a rule. It's like, maybe you haven't read the Laws of the Game. So that is something that is a little bit different from, again, soccer, which are football, which is an international game. And we have these laws that govern things. And here in America that we have kind of rule books. So it's just a little slight little vernacular difference, but they are different things. And they have different meanings to someone who officiate soccer. 

Matt Cundill  10:24  
So I've been playing this game for a while in high school, and then I played it again, till I was 37, ruined my knee playing soccer had the rebuild. And then COVID hit and I picked it up again. So there I was the age of 50. Back out on the field, I don't know the difference between an indirect free kick and a direct free kick, at least when one is issued. Isn't that crazy? I just didn't know I just said somebody said indirect. I'd set it up that way. If it was direct, we set it up that way. But you had to tell me on your channel, that an indirect free kick comes from a non contact penalty, and a direct kick is a contact penalty. Did I get it right?

David Gerson  11:01  
Yes, the only word I'm going to change is instead of penalty, let's call it a foul because as you know, a penalty kick would be a kick from 12 yards out in the center of the goal with no one else there. So let's just straighten that out. But yes, if it's a non contact foul, so I raise my foot up, and I almost kick someone in the face, but I don't kick them in the face. Well, that would be playing in a dangerous manner. And indirect free kick another example, if I kick the ball back to the goalkeeper with my foot, okay, they can't use their hands to do that, inside that or anywhere, it was definitely inside the penalty area. Otherwise, it would be an indirect free kick offense. So those are examples of indirect free kick offense now, if I slid, and I took you out. And I did not make fair challenge of the ball with this contact there. So that would be a direct free kick offense that that would be really the main differences there.

Matt Cundill  11:51  
I have seen an official do this. And I really liked when he did it when the ball was played back to the goalkeeper, the referee would say you can use hands, you can use hands. You can't is that common? Dude? Some officials do it. Some do not. Are you encouraged to do that? 

David Gerson  12:04  
Well, I think that's a wonderful example of a referee using their voice to communicate what is going on, on the pitch. And I just want to say, there are a number of reasons why parents and coaches and players yell at a soccer match, either at officials or because they're looking for calls. But I would tell you the number one reason that I find that people raise their voices and say that's a foul, or that's not a foul is because there's a vacuum of information. And I think one of the things that a referee can do, especially at a grassroots event is communicate is communicate. And in that scenario, you know, I mean, again, sometimes it can be hard to know no one's read the letter of the law, like I've read the letter A law that a deliberate pass back to a goalkeeper could only be with the ankle or the foot that's in the Laws of the Game. But what if someone like heads the ball back or chest the ball back or uses their knee and hit it back? Sometimes people are like, I don't know if I can pick it up, you know, it's helpful. If you're the referee is still like, yes, you can pick it up, you can pick it up, let's go. I mean, just trying to help people understand the laws of the game. We're not trying to play gotcha out there. You know, just help people understand. Again, there's, I'm not sure of the exact number in Canada. But there are now 26 million people here in the United States who play soccer on a weekly basis who are engaged with the game on a weekly basis. There are only 14 million people in England, okay, like a home of soccer that played on a weekly basis. But of those 26 million people, how many of their parents grew up playing the game, right? Not that many. And then also the laws change over the years. They're constantly changing from year to year. So as a referee, I think it's great that we can communicate, help people understand to broaden their understanding of the game. So there's less and less of that misunderstanding and frustration.

Matt Cundill  14:03  
 Because if you go to the sideline, you have to explain to a parent, or even if you call it out, and you say, well, that's DOGSO. And done. Yeah. I didn't even know what that was until a couple of years ago. I kind of knew it in principle. And I think it feels relatively new, like within the last 20 years that we started to talk about what this is. So what is DOGSO and how does it change how you apply reds and yellows.

David Gerson  14:29  
I love this. This is actually a phenomenal question. Seriously, DOGSO like, what is DOGSO? Oh, it's crazy. Well, it's an acronym. It stands for denial of an obvious goalscoring opportunity. Sometimes you'll have people like yell out when there's been a tackle the last defender takes down the attacker and then everyone's gonna be like last man last man last manually. I hear that they know it's a bad thing. They don't know exactly why or what it is. But in soccer because it is so hard to score, right just the way the game is set up. It's relatively low scoring, that we make it a cardinal sin. If there's an attacker who's kind of through on goal and only has the goalkeeper to beat if a defender takes them out of the play. And the conditions for denial of obvious goalscoring opportunity DOGSO are met, it is met with a red card. And in this in our game in soccer, when you receive a red card, it means you're sent off and your team has to play down a player for the remainder of the match. It's very different from American soccer or basketball. When you know a player gets sent off, we get sub someone else saying, well, it is a really bad thing in soccer when you do this. So what we're talking about there is denial of an obvious goalscoring opportunity. And there are four conditions of it. Yes, that there's no other defenders between the foul and the goal, yes, that the ball is going towards goal, it's not going to like the corner. So we got general direction of play, likelihood of control. So again, it looks like they're going to be able to control the ball, right. And then the distance to the goal is not that great, like you can't get sent off for DOGSO you know, in the other teams half of the field. So that's what makes up denial of obvious goalscoring opportunity. It's a really big deal. It's a really important call. And so it's critical that we all understand what it is, you know, when it happens, and when it's not something that it happens or when it's not a red card offence. So that's that's big part of my channel is trying to educate people on what these things are, so that they can intelligently talk about it and understand it on the pitch.

Matt Cundill  16:33  
This did come up, by the way, and you did review this in your channel. And I happen to be in Barcelona, when this took place at the Champions League game. It was PSG vs Barcelona, Barcelona was cruising along with a one nothing lead. And it's are you Whoa, in the 29th Minute who commits a DOGSO offense, very lazy on the play. And, you know, I judged by the fans, aside from the fact that I had to ride the subway or ride the Metro home with all these sad, sad fans. It was an honest funeral on the metro. But they understood DOGSO they understood that the 1000 correct that the play was incorrect. The only, you know bitching to the referee was occurring from the Barcelona coach, you know, who sees it differently obviously from from his position, but from the fans that I was talking to, they really did understand, you know, what this was, it was a lazy play by the player.

David Gerson  17:26  
Yeah, the thing that's very interesting about that, so those who know, like, they get it, and then there's feelings like, oh, well, the referee shouldn't have shown a red card that early in the match. And that's the thing, right? Like you brought it up earlier. These are not the whims of the referee, these are not, oh, well, you know, it's early in the match. And I want to keep a close, I'm going to show a yellow card, and I'm going to let them stay on the field. They are laws, the laws of the game, specify exactly this scenario, and exactly what the punishment is for this scenario, it is not an option. He could not go there and say, Hey, I'm not going to award a card, I'm just going to do a yellow card. It is a red card. offense. And that's that's part of you know, what being a referee is, is that we love the game so much that we study the Laws of the Game, and that we have the integrity to uphold those laws. Even when it's difficult. I kid you not mad. I'm not joking. My high school yearbook quote, is that "it is better to stand alone for the right reasons, then be together for the wrong". Yes, you're in Barcelona. Would it be nice to let that guy stay on the field and not award a red card? Of course. But because we have made this choice to be a referee and uphold the laws of the game. We have no choice but to show a red card.

Matt Cundill  18:55  
I think this was your game. I saw it on your channel. But you issued a red card 20 seconds into a game. 

David Gerson  19:02  
Yes. It's awful. I hated it. Like who wants to do that? Who wants to do that to a 14 year old kid who literally drove three hours you know probably with his family, you know to go into some rainy pitch someplace, you know and play a match only to be thrown out 20 seconds into the match and the team has to play down a player for the rest of the match and then they have to sit out the next match too because that's what happens in soccer when you get a red card. Awful. But he did something that required me to show a red card. When you go all Bruce Lee flying through the air at a full sprint with your studs up and you land and you catch someone like hi above that ankle with your full weight and force. The laws tell me that is a red card offense. I didn't tell him to do that. But my job as the referee on the day Is to uphold the laws that I've kind of sworn to uphold. And I don't want to like make it like some this holier than thou thing like, like, I'm a judge. But like, our number one job out there is safety. And so if I don't give that kid a red card for doing what I believe, and like firmly believe that to see in the video, again, is a red card offense. Well, what do I do for the next kid who retaliates and does that, hey, you just gave him a yellow card. So it's, it's consistency. It's honesty, its integrity. And unfortunately, and unfortunately, that means that we have to dish out some punishments that some people may not like. And I will tell you, I got a ton of grief over that, from people who don't know, but pretty much everyone in the rough community was like, good job. You did your job. Well done. 

Matt Cundill  20:51  
Yeah, I can see some sports like hockey, we might give a two instead of a five early in the game. But you know, you do set the tone for the rest of the game, it can be a little bit more objective. In that sense. I can certainly see how that could go sideways quickly. 

David Gerson  21:04  
Yes. So let me tell you, I've watched plenty of hockey videos. Crazy, crazy. And hockey parents, oh my gosh, oh, my gosh.

Matt Cundill  21:15  
 Well, there's a glass, it's okay.

David Gerson  21:18  
Hopefully, sometimes I've seen them try and climb over the glass. So they, they're trying to cause people on the way out, it can be crazy, or, or the hockey parents going after each other. Right? So the hockey parents are outside the glass, and then they're going after each other. Forget about the referee?

Matt Cundill  21:33  
Can you toss a fan to scope you're done? 

David Gerson  21:35  
Absolutely. Yeah.

I mean, I've probably had to do it about 10 times in my, you know, 10 years. Normally, they get the point after the warning. So, so what we encourage people, so in my early years, I used to get very upset. And I'd be like, who said that? And you'd be like, you know, like, yell at the parents, like, you know, what, you know, watch your mouth or, you know, don't talk to me like that, now that I'm more mature. If I have an issue with the parent as a 49 year old man, you know, I could just simply say, hey, you know, please, you know, you're here to cheer the kids coaches here to coach players who play one ref here to ref. You know, please help create a supportive environment by cheering your child, any comments, the referees, or any additional comments, you'll be dismissed, you know, sometimes I'll do that. But if, if I'm not comfortable, and someone's really irate, I just go up to the coach and I say, coach, that parent over their red shirt hat, please go talk to them. You know, they're engaging in public dissent towards the referee crew. If they do not stop, I will then next ask you to have them leave, but please go talk to them. And usually, that does it you know, everyone sees the coach come across. No coach wants to deal with that. No, coach wants that. Because let me tell you, not only is that guy or gal, you know, soccer mom, or soccer dad yelling at the ref. But they're also yelling at the players to telling them to, you know, pass shoot, press, blah, blah, blah, on their joystick in their kid all over the pitch. And it's not helping their kid you know, develop a soccer IQ or perform any better and just giving unneeded pressure out there. So let me tell you, a coach is not upset if he has to go do that. And normally, they can stamp it out. But yes, again, I mentioned earlier, if you say anything negative to a child on the pitch, if you say something that is rude or insulting to a child on the other team, I don't give you a second chance you're done. Absolutely. I grabbed the coach, that person gone. Again, if you can't handle that warning, okay, you're gone if you if you get up and try to physically come into a referee space, and I've had this before where I was at the center and saw someone get up trying yell right next to one of my fellow crew members like face, okay, you're gone. Okay, our safety is compromised, we cannot continue unless that person has gone. So yes, we do it. I am very thankful that I haven't had any personal physical assaults. I've certainly had people threatened my physical safety and needed police escorts out of a pitch. But I know people who have indeed been physically assaulted. So I try and address that verbal abuse early. Because I know if people do not feel like their words are working, the next step is getting physical. And we've got to stamp that out before that can even be a possibility. 

Matt Cundill  24:27  
And you've got a couple of videos that you've shared. And I've seen this before. And that's where the kids say, Mom, Dad, shut up. Shut up. Stop. It's enough.

David Gerson  24:35  
I know. Do they don't want to hear it? When 13-12 year old kid 15 year old kid wants to hear their parents yelling at you know, the ref or the players are telling him it's like, No man, just go there and support them and enjoy it. Enjoy it. It should be fun. I mean, that's why we're doing it right is to have a great time to you know, enjoy the act of competing. I gotta tell you, man, I mean, I I don't, I don't get to play anymore, right? Like my only playing is reffing, right? So I get to ref I run around and I ref. But man when I get a chance to put on some cleats and I get to run around and play, it is wonderful. It is the most wonderful thing whether I'm playing soccer, or I'm playing pickleball or I'm playing anything being outside and running around in the fresh air is the most wonderful thing. Can we just enjoy it?

Matt Cundill  25:25  
How far do you run? Have you ever tracked how far? 

David Gerson  25:27  
Oh, absolutely. I tracked every match. Yeah, no, I have a a, an app called the ref six pro app. And I track everything. Every sprint, all my heart rates, everything my heat map on the pitch. I did a match this past Tuesday night, and I clocked over six miles in one match. So it is very common for me to do over 20 miles on the pitch. Pretty much every weekend. I have four matches this weekend. And I guarantee it'll be well over 20 miles on my feet. And again, I'm I'm 49 years old, I'm not a professional athlete, I can't commit to training every single day, I probably work out two to three times a week in addition to my roughing, but man, yeah, it keeps me fit. And that's one of the things that I love about it is not only do I stay mentally fit, because it's a wonderful release in a wonderful, you know, lose yourself into the moment, I don't worry about the stress of what's going on in my corporate life. But it's also a physical release, and all those wonderful positive endorphins get released. It's wonderful.

Matt Cundill  26:24  
I saw the heat map. And you were talking about a two man system. And I've never seen two referees on the field before I have in hockey. But I've never seen two referees on the field before. So how does it work between you? You know, who calls what I mean? There must be some sort of I communication between you did you get that? Did you see that? If he didn't see it, then you can call it? How's this work?

David Gerson  26:47  
I'd like to say there was a better system, or that we make eye contact? No, it's awful. So there's an extreme shortage of referees in our country. And then again, I don't know High School Associations always want to think that they're smarter than the professionals. So they make up their own rules. And soccer is one of those. So we have a different law book or rule book. They have a rulebook not luck for high school, and college boards, but then also to keep costs down. And because there's a shortage of referees, instead of a three person system where there's one center referee and two assistants on the sidelines, they have what's called a dual whistle system where there's two reps kind of diagonally apart on the field. And they both have a whistle. And they can both make calls. And it's brutal. I mean, if you have a great partner, and it's a relatively slow game you can get by, but in a high intensity very, very fast game. It's very, very difficult. And there will be times when I am 50-60 yards away from a play. And I'm blowing my whistle because my other fellow referee is 50-60 yards away from the play. It's very difficult. You never feel like you're in the right position. I feel bad for the fans. I feel bad for the players. I feel bad for the coaches. But I'll have that happen on the pitch, just by the nature of the system because there is not a referee who's trying to keep up in the center of the pitch with the play, I'll have someone say is like, Hey, you missed that one. And I'd be like, I'm sorry, coach, maybe I did. All I can do is the best I can do. But I think that's you know, being humble and appreciating, you know, the how the system is deficient in a lot of ways and just being honest. Be like, Hey, I'm sorry, I might have missed one usually takes a lot of the anger out of it. 

Matt Cundill  28:29  
Okay, so I mean in hockey right from when you start, it's two men. Call the offsides. You call the penalties. Why is it so much harder in soccer? Why do you not speak as nicely about it?

David Gerson  28:43  
Tell me this. How long is a hockey rink?

Matt Cundill  28:46  
It's 200 feet. 

David Gerson  28:47  
Okay, so 200 feet, so we're talking about 70 yards approximately. Okay, so a soccer pitch in high school because they use American High School fields is 120 yards long. How wide is a hockey rink? 

Matt Cundill  29:01  
85 feet.

David Gerson  29:02  
85 feet. So what is that in yards? Again? We're talking like, what? 35 yards, something like that? 

Matt Cundill  29:07  
Yeah, not even.

David Gerson  29:08  
 Maybe 35 yards. Okay, so a an American high school field is often about for soccer setup is about 58 yards wide. So we're talking about it twice as big, okay, have a have a field or a surface that you need to cover. We're on our feet, we're not on skates. So you know, we're not traveling as fast as easily as what you're talking about. So then you're putting two people to cover that same space at half the speed. So it is very, very difficult to do so. And again, on key match decisions for us like an offside, like you can see okay, there's a line on the field on the rink that tells you what's offside. It's right there, it never changes. Well, in soccer, offside is the second to last opponent. If that makes sense. That person can be at the midfield line. They could be like Get all the way back by their penalty area. And you have to run and keep up with the plays. So we're talking about massive distances, a huge field, you know, situations that are constantly changing depending on where the ball is where the players are. So it can be very difficult.

Matt Cundill  30:14  
Okay, you sold me? I get it now. Absolutely.

David Gerson  30:20  
It's a thing that it's a thing. It's hard. Listen, we can get it done at lower level age groups. No big deal, man. I mean, I tell you, if it's a you 12 recreational match, I think one referee fine. But when we start moving up to these teenagers who are, you know, 16, 17, 18, you know, in the prime fitness and outrageously fast, and we're dealing with exceptionally long distances, where I literally have to do a 100 yard, run from one side of the field to the other side of the field and try and keep up with the 16, 17, 18 year old kids and tell you it is tough.

Mary Anne Ivison (Voiceover)  31:03  
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Matt Cundill  31:18  
Tell me about some of the local rules that get inserted. Give me some examples of good ones versus bad ones. So you mentioned one the other day about college timing, and then the time stops? Helped me. 

David Gerson  31:30  
Well, I mean, I think the clock is a great example. So and again, I hate to keep saying American sports, excuse me, I mean, because I think let's talk North Americans, I think Canada, you know, plays baseball, and basketball and, and there's the CFL and the NFL. Okay, so let's just talk North American Sports. But there's finite amounts of time. And clocks that start and stop all the time. And soccer or in rugby, these English sports, there's just not a clock. And it's much more, you know, subjective as to, you know, how much more time are we going to play in this match or something of that nature. So just managing the clock as a referee by yourself in the middle of the pitch, who's trying to communicate with someone who might be up in, you know, like a booth someplace like 100 yards away, he's not paying attention to the game is really very difficult. And then in soccer, like if a ball is kicked, and again, I'm a referee, and I'm 50 yards away, and I'm not on the goal line, in high school in college, if the buzzer blows, and that ball has not crossed the goal line, okay, well, that goal shouldn't count. Well, how the hell am I going to know that from 50 yards away, and I'm not standing on the goal line. So I think that, you know, clock is a great example of local rules of competition, where we try and, you know, Americanize and North Americanize, soccer so that it's easier to understand for people here. But the way the game works, you know, and the way it's designed, it makes it really hard to implement. I mean, there were a number of other rules, you know, at lower age groups, like play outlines, and you can't do headers and different amount of substitutions, and all those types of things that just make it challenging as a referee, where I could be in one week, I could have to implement four different rules of competition, you know, across 10 different matches, it just makes it very complex.

Matt Cundill  33:29  
When can we substitute?

David Gerson  33:33  
Depends what rules you're playing by. So in high school, it's one thing and in college, it's one thing in some leagues, it's one thing I mean, in the pros, it's something else. I mean, in the pros, it's any dead ball, you know, corner kick, throwing goal kick goal is scored, even if there's an injury or free kick is it's at the referees discretion. But as you move through all of these other types of leagues, it starts getting much more complex as to when you can and can't substitute.

Matt Cundill  34:00  
And the number of times you can substitute the number of players you can substitute.

David Gerson  34:03  
How many times a half Can I substitute? Can you you can you can sub it in the first half, you get seven in the second half. But once you're out, you're out. You're like all these things. And it's different at every age group, and in every single league that I referee. And this is just one more of those things that causes a disconnect between the referee, the players, the coaches and the fans where they are everyone gets upset. Well, I thought you could do this. Well, I think you can do this and it's just it's another one of those things that causes a pain in frustration.

Matt Cundill  34:35  
Have you heard some leagues are considering using a blue card where people can go and have a cooldown period for two minutes, which is again grifted obviously from hockey. 

David Gerson  34:46  
Well yeah, hockey and rugby and so it was going to be 10 minutes now they have actually shot this down. Now it's not not that it won't come up again for 2024 2025. But they were going to do it and it was specifically for cynical fouls. It was specifically going to be for dissent, to deal with the issue of verbal abuse towards officials that there would be a blue card, and then you would have to play a player down for 10 minutes, kind of like a, you know, a penalty, as you said in hockey, they do it in rugby as well. Again, I think I think there's some times where I think it would be well served. I know in England in particular, they do have what is called a sin bin for dissent. And it has been very, very positively received and implemented at addressing negative behavior towards referees. Now, they not only did they do sin bins in England, but they also have done trials with body cams. So they're actually recording these behaviors. When, when a referee feels that they need to capture something on film, they don't record the entire match, they just touch the camera, and it starts recording the minute previous, and it keeps on going until they touch the camera again. And it has gone a long way to addressing dissent. And they have not had a single incidence, a single incidence of physical abuse or violence towards an official, since implementing the body cameras, and I'm waiting for these to be trialed are allowed here in the United States. We are not allowed to use even communications equipment as referees at youth levels here in the United States. We're not allowed to use body cameras. And I'm really hoping that that changes sometime in the near future. Because I think that things like this the blue card, you know if that's the right thing, if it's two minutes, it's 10 minutes, you know, body cameras would go a long way to addressing referee of verbal and physical abuse.

Matt Cundill  36:35  
In hockey. That's what misconducts are. So you can penalize the to the team for two minutes. And then the other team goes on the powerplay, but if if someone's being just completely unreasonable, the 10 Minute misconduct I thought was fantastic. Because they'd have to go sit in the box.  

David Gerson  36:50  
It's fast. I mean, I get I have three kids who all played sports, you know, my son played soccer from the time he was three to the time he was 18. Competitive high Academy. He was in the US Development Academy at one time. But I mean, I remember my son came to me and told me at like, 12, he, he told my wife and I don't talk to me, like, I don't want you even yelling positive things to me. During the match. Like you can just cheer and just be a fan and support the team. But don't talk to me out there. I don't want to hear from you. And I tell you, it's, there's some sometimes parents like all of a sudden, you know, it's the common refrain about referees, right? Don't make it all about you ref. But I see so many parents, which all the time that are making it all about them, that are just screaming out the most ridiculous things out players at referees like all over the place, like making the dumbest comments. And even if it could be a good comment, again, it's totally making it about them. It's like just cheer support these kids, whether it's on your team, or the other team, celebrate the fact that we get to watch our children in our community, play these wonderful games and get all of these great lessons. And I'm telling you, I mean, I think my son grew as much from the losses and the negative experiences he had as a player as much as he did from the wins, I think even more so. It's okay. It's okay. If a call doesn't go their way. It's okay. If they lose a game. It's what did they learn from the experience? You know, what did they get from that experience? Man, it will make them stronger. It's okay. Ah, it just drives me It drives me bananas. 

Matt Cundill  38:42  
Give me your strategy when the game is going on to know how much injury time to tack on per half?

David Gerson  38:48  
This is a great question. And it's one of those things that like, well, I don't understand. There is actually language in the in the Laws of the Game that say anything that would be like, beyond the normal of stoppages. So obviously, the ball goes out for a throw. And if someone goes over and takes that throw in a reasonable amount of time, no big deal. I'm not adding more time on for that. But let's say there's a substitution and someone takes a really long time getting off the pitch. Then I could add time on for that. If there's a goal. Well, that's a real stoppage of play. So maybe I'll add 30 seconds on for a goal. So I go through all these things. If there's an injury, you know, okay, I've got an injury, you know, I have to bring a trainer in the coach onto the pitch. Okay, that would be something that I'd add time onto the end of the match. And so I'm doing a mental calculation while I'm out there. I also add time on my watch as well. And you know, that's where I get to Okay, I'm going to add a minimum of three minutes on the end of the match. I had two goals. I had one injury. I didn't have any other real delays of the game. Okay. Three minutes feels good for me. I think one of the things that is challenging is that it is mystical. You know, no one sees it, you know, because you're not stopping a clock in front of everyone. So like How'd you come up with two minutes? How'd you come up with three minutes? It seems all over the board. Right? That is a problem. They are trying to address that in the Laws of the Game. And I think this year, as we saw on World Cup in 2022, ones at 2022, that sometimes 

Matt Cundill  40:16  
T here were some sevens and Thirteen's. 

David Gerson  40:18  
Yeah, 70 minutes at a time, that was crazy. I think they've gotten back to something a little bit more manageable, where it's like, seven, nine minutes, depending on the match, whatnot. But yes, we try and add for anything that would be out of the ordinary stoppages, not for every time the ball goes out, or every time there's a, you know, a throw in or something like that. It's like anything that's beyond the norm.

Matt Cundill  40:38  
I actually was fairly exhausted at minute 90, and I knew we were at 90, but I would just go ask the referee how much time you got, and they would always let me know I've got five, I've got four. And then I come back, another minute later, I go, that must be five. It just feels like it write it. But I guess the only thing I know, and I'm sure if this is in practice, the only thing I would really like to see is that when you do hit, you know, 45 minutes of either half that you say I'm adding five, I'm adding formatting three. 

David Gerson  41:06  
Yes. And that is you know, again, if you're experienced, that's what you do. And so I if when I'm getting right at 45, I will yell out coaches, adding one adding one or adding two adding two and I make sure everyone knows my fellow referees, the parents all hear it. I'm not addressing the parents, but I'm saying it loud enough. So all the parents and the players get it, because that's one of your jobs, like as the referee, what's going on? Okay, it has there been a score, or there's not a score? Is the ball inbounds or out of bounds. How much time is left is one of those basic courtesies that you can provide. I always like I hear stories, sometimes. Oh, I asked the ref what time it was how much time was left? They got angry at me. I'm like, what? Yes, if you're asking me the time, every 30 seconds, I can understand. But for God's sakes, I mean, just, you know, provide that information. And generally, that's all people are looking for is they just want to understand what's going on.

Matt Cundill  42:00  
You mentioned earlier, no communication headsets. What's that about?

David Gerson  42:03  
It's just a weird thing. I don't understand. I don't get it. You know, I from what I understand that the thinking was, they don't want people at what they call grassroots youth football, you soccer levels using communication headsets, because it can make people lazy, you know, because most people don't have communication headsets, the cheapest ones these days are $400, cheap, the really decent ones, or 1000 to 1500, really great ones or $4,000. So most people don't have those things for doing youth matches. So if people started using them more, they feel like they might not rely on the normal mechanics, the flag mechanics, the hand signals, the eye contact the verbal communication, and just use the comms devices. So they're trying to encourage people to work on the basics before they start using these communications devices. But I have to tell you, as someone who works with new referees, man, what I love to be talking to them all throughout the match, about what's going on out there and what I saw. And you know, hearing from them what they're seeing or what they might have seen on a play or something like that, or when there's an offside that I don't have to like, like, take my eyes off the play to look and see that they've got their flag up. There's so many benefits to use and communication systems. I understand why they put the rule in place, but I think it's misguided because it can be a great training tool. And that, Matt, that is the number one thing that we need right now we lose 40% I'm sorry, no, no, I got my number wrong. I'm sorry. We lose 80% of referees within the first three years. And you know, yes, they say it's abuse from spectators and coaches and players and stuff like that. But man, I tell you, if we were able to use like communications devices, and we could be talking to each other, and they could be paired up with experienced referees and they get good feedback while they're out there on the pitch. It would go so far to helping them feel confident and feel engaged and have fun out there. It's really fun to use those communication devices. I think we can keep people a lot longer.

Matt Cundill  44:04  
Do you have a favorite FIFA official or official anywhere?

David Gerson  44:08  
There's a gentleman in the MLS and there's a couple of men and women in the in the MLS and NWSL that I just adore. Ismail A faff. He was He He's our top US official right now. I think he left in the quarterfinals of the World Cup, the most recent one that we have. There's there's a certain thing that they look for in the professional referees associate organization here in the US and they look for referees that have presence, but it's a calm, confident presence. And they are wonderful at De escalating situations. And I just love watching Islmales match control. He just seems so calm, so composed and friendly. Again, it It's a very intense thing. I mean, people are throwing their bodies on the line, they're given everything they have, you know, they're doing everything they can to win a match whatnot. And he just looks like this, you know, this sea of calm, you know, in this crazy hurricane of emotions. And I have so much respect for that. And I try and emulate that when I'm on the pitch. I mean, listen, I take it very seriously. And I'm working hard out there. But I'm having fun out there. And I want to be approachable. I want people feel like they can come to me, if they've got a question or concern. I want coaches to feel that they can communicate to me without having to yell at me. And for it to be negative. Because let me tell you, there is no communication in an argument. All someone's doing is trying to get what they're thinking across the other person. They're not listening. I need people to listen, I will listen. But I also need them to listen as to why I made a decision, why I didn't make a decision what my thought process was, because we need to be able to move forward as professionals together. So Ismales my guy.

Matt Cundill  46:05  
I think back over the last, you know, 20-30 years about some of the more popular officials, you know, you can see him on Instagram as it scrolls by because I'm watching yours. And as a result, I'm going to be fed a whole bunch of other things, because that's just the way these algorithms work. But I mean, Pierluigi Collina from Italy. It was a different era, the way he officiated games, but it was, it was quite forceful. Like he would, he would push back and he had the look in his eyes. I mean, there was some charisma, but it was fairly even keel. But a little more in modern times, like Howard Webb, he did the 2010 World Cup final, I think it was his last match. And that was Spain versus the Netherlands. And unfortunately had to go he had to pull out cards, I think there was like 12 cards that he had to pull out throughout the course of the game. But again, somebody who's got a strong presence communicates well and is fairly even keeled in the way that the decisions get handed out there.

David Gerson  46:56  
Collina is such an interesting story, right? Because you're right. I mean, he was a brand of referee, a firebrand would be the word to use. I mean, he was not afraid to be confrontational, and not afraid to be demonstrative and not afraid to get in someone's face when he felt like they were coming at him. You know, he was for your listeners who don't know, I mean, I think he's probably 6'1" 6'2". Bald, very intense looking individual. I mean, if you wanted to be a villain in movies, or sci fi, he would have no problem getting roles. And he was a top referee of his time, and known for that kind of confrontation and flair. I think the way the world has moved, though, is they're recognizing that when you do that, in professional settings, and people are watching this on television, that all of a sudden, well now I think I can do that at the grassroots level. So now I'm going to start getting into referees faces, and I'm going to start yelling at them and chest bumping them because I've now seen this on TV. That's okay. And it leads to, you know, referees leaving the game saying, I don't need this. I mean, you're kidding me. I'm getting paid essentially 20 bucks an hour. I've taken my entire weekend to be here. I literally have to worry about my physical safety. And if I'm going to get home to my family tonight, are you kidding me? And so I think they've seen it doesn't help anyone to do that. Also, I think the the bar is a lot lower now for cards for yellow cards, and for red cards. You know that behavior 30 years ago, bumping into a referee going head to head with them. It was fun play on now, if you touch a referee, and I'm thankful for this, you know, because again, referees have gotten killed. It's not like sugarcoat this, like, oh, it's no big deal. No referees get killed. And it happens every year. And I get emails and messages every single week from referees who are being assaulted in recreational leagues. So now much lower bar, you touch a referee, at a minimum, it's going to be Yellowcard. You do it in a way that's forceful, it's going to be a red card. So Collina heads up all referees in the world for Ifat, the International Football Association, and he also speaks about the need to be calm, to de escalate to be professional. So it worked for him in Italy 40 years ago. It certainly would not work today.

Matt Cundill  49:20  
Tell me about how you got started educating us about the game and interpreting it didn't start on Instagram that it started on Tik Tok. How did you start this?

David Gerson  49:30  
So Refs Need Love Too started as a joke. All of the things I wish I could say back to people on the pitch that I can't. When people are yelling rough, you miss that call. And I'm like, Dude, how did you miss that goal? Seriously, it was easier to score than to miss it. Obviously. I can't say things like that. So it started as like referee comebacks on TikToks my kids were on tick tock actually the first video was a funny video of my wife putting my uniform on she was in a movie she needed, like some generic costume and I took a Have you ever put it on tick tock, and then like literally is like out of nowhere, got 1000 views, 50,000 views, 100,000 views and it went viral. And so I was like, Oh, this is cool. I'm gonna do other funny stuff. And so I did these funny videos of things I could never say on the pitch, no one's ever gonna see this stuff, whatever they started doing, okay. But I'd say about two to three weeks in, I started getting these comments from young referees who were like, Hey, I've just been racially abused. And I don't know who to talk to about it. I don't know what to do. Or I just had a coach scream at me and follow me to the parking lot. I don't know what to do. I don't know who to talk to about it. Because being a referee is a lonely existence. You're an individual contractor. For these young kids, their friends probably don't referee either. Their families have never refereed you go and you work together with other referees and you go home and you have no one to talk to. It's not like you have a boss that you could like, sit down with HR and talk about it. I mean, no, you sign up on some list. They send out assignments, you get assigned, you go and you leave. And so these, these teenagers and these adults, you know, we're starting to reach out to me, it's like, Hey, here's a referee, that's approachable, that I could ask questions to and I would start doing like these live, you know, I'd go Tiktok live or something like that. And I would just be there and I would be a sounding board for them, for them to ask questions for them to get feedback for them to talk about what do I do if this happens again? Okay, well, well, here are the words to say, here's who you need to go talk to about it. This is what you need to put in the report. And so it very quickly, and I'm talking like within a month went from being okay, this isn't a joke anymore. I need to help people understand that these are real people, that these are humans that have emotions that are being traumatized, and being physically abused that that's not okay. And hey, referees, these voiceless people who have never had a voice, right? Like you're just supposed to be strong and silent, you don't complain, you don't talk to the media don't have social media. Listen, I'm not going pro. I know this. If I was gonna go pro, I would have just started 30 years ago, not happening, okay, I honestly don't think I'm a good enough like athlete, to be a professional like these people. They're amazing. Because of that, it gives me a freedom to have a platform, and to communicate, to tell people what's going on in our world and our mind, and to show that we are mothers and fathers and sisters and brothers and uncles and aunts, that we are people, we live in your community and we deserve respect. And we deserve to be treated right? And to not be threatened. Like what happens every single week out there. So just to summarize, it started as something funny, but it got real very quick. And I get messages every single day. I mean, I'm talking Nepal, like Zimbabwe, Guam, you name a country man, I got people reaching out to me telling me thank you, thank you for giving a voice to the voiceless, and talking about what we go through and what we deal with and helping people understand the role of the referee, because there just is not a support network, otherwise out there.

Matt Cundill  53:11  
So refs need love to start as a TikTok account

David Gerson  53:15  
As a joke, like straight up joke. Like honestly, I had to go to my I don't know my daughter was 15 at the time and ask her how to like post it. It was like this is funny. Can you help me posted on Tik Tok is because she was into Tik Tok and my son was a Tiktok and and that was the hot thing as the time and now I've got 184,000 followers, my videos have been viewed hundreds of millions of times I have like literally 15 million engagements or likes on there. I mean, it's crazy. And I literally, I do Laws of the Game analysis. But I do it in 60 to 90 second video clips that are designed to be fun and interesting and informative you know, at the same time so I take something that is painful. The Laws of the Game is like 200 page PDF that is like dry as like a legal like document right?

Matt Cundill  54:09  
Was the next thing to put it into Instagram next. 

David Gerson  54:11  
Yeah, so TikTok was where I started and really built a huge audience but then as soon as the American government was like, Hey, I think we're gonna be shut down TikTok. I was like, I better diversify. About eight months ago I really started building the Instagram audience but it's been wonderful. You know, Instagram again, when you post to Instagram but also posts on Facebook, Facebook, there's a I'd say a more mature demographic, Tik Tok generally, trends younger although 50% of Americans on Tik Tok are 30 years old and older. So 50% or 30 and under a lot of people think it's a young tool. There's plenty of people sharing, you know, baking recipes on there, and there's plenty of people doing gardening stuff. These are things that I'm into so I know about that stuff. But Instagram, you can connect with a multigenerational audience and also go on to Facebook, which is generally more mature as well, although all of a sudden, now my high school daughter and her friends are on Facebook, it's kind of coming back around, which is funny. But yes, I've started a little bit of YouTube. It's just, there's only so many hours in the day. I mean, this is a passion project. For me. It's a side hustle. You know, gosh, I'd have the channel everywhere. I, if I could, I'd be doing a podcast every two days, if I go to there's always so much material, but there's only so many hours in the day. 

Matt Cundill  55:26  
Okay, so then you got the YouTube channel. And you've got the podcast, too. I mean, I wanted to have you on I didn't even know you had a podcast. 

David Gerson  55:34  
Oh, the podcast has been huge. Now. I mean, it because it gives me an opportunity to talk in long form 60 to 90 seconds. It's so funny. I mean, I know you're in production and you do radio, but to be concise, is so much harder than being verbose to to plan a 60 second video on very complex laws of the game. And to think about exactly what angle to show and where to stop it and where to freeze frame. And then what law to show and how to point that out. And all that stuff, I have to think about those videos, oftentimes for two or three days, before I'm ready to shoot, and spend about an hour editing clips together. And then I got to do like 10 takes to be able to get 1 60 second clip. And the podcast is so free. I mean, yes, I put together you know, I don't script it word for word, but my bullet points and what I want to cover, but now I've got 30-40 minutes, where I can really kind of go into, you know, the full nuances of why a call is made or not made or what I love about you know, being a high school referee or the the lessons you can learn and imply to corporate life. Like it's so wonderful. And there's an entirely different group of people who love that. And so now, you know, it started as being downloaded 50 times a week. And now I've got, you know, a couple 1000 people every single week downloading my podcasts and sending me letters. And yeah, it's just so cool, man, I just, I think it this is this has grown so popular, it has blown me away. And I just I'm so thankful for all the people who enable me to do this to the audience who appreciates what I'm doing. It has added so much to my life so much to my family's life. And I really do I feel that little by little, you know, it's like that pebble dropped in a pond who's whose ripples land on a, you know, on a shore 1000s of miles away. It's like every time I can take a parent. And I could turn them from being a yeller to all of a sudden being a referee whisperer on the sideline, that they used to yell with everyone else. And now they're like, Hey, guys, yeah, that person was not offside until they got involved the play, so it's not. And they start doing that, or I get a coach who instead of yelling at the referee, all of a sudden, you know, starts to just focus on their players. And if they have a question, they ask in a nice manner, or player who's respectful for the referee, it's like, every time that happens, man, you know, I'm affecting 10, 50, 100 other people. And you know, we're, we're changing, you know, the culture of a game and we're changing this the culture of a league, and then we're going to change the culture of a sport and hopefully change the culture in a society that is more empathetic and kind to the officials at their use sporting events. So it's just wonderful. 

Matt Cundill  58:30  
Okay, so that's one reason why it would dissuade me from going out to becoming a soccer official is that I sit at home high definition, giant television, we get to wind it backwards, the referee gets assistance from upstairs, we're going to do the little var, we're going to go have a look at that. And I'm like, oh, that's for sure this and that. It's not that and it's explained to me fine. But the number of things that I miss, when I'm watching, you know, La Liga, and every Saturday I do watch La Liga, I will miss some things. And I'm I don't think I'd be able to do this on my local level.

David Gerson  59:04  
 Well, let me tell you, a matt, just in our conversation, you seem like a very conscientious person who cares a great deal and you love the game. So you will, you'd be great. You'd be wonderful. And there's a level of soccer out there for you. And I am so thrilled so my kids are now 18 No 1917 and 15 My eldest is off to college, my next one's going to college next year. And I am so thrilled that I have this now that on my weekends and during the year I get to be, you know, with these kids, you know, with these 1314 1718 year old teenagers, they have so much passion and joy, and they've got their whole lives ahead for them. And I love that I get to be there and experience these games with them and the highs and the lows and the joy and the cheers and the tears and all of that stuff. I love it. You know and because I'm a referee. I've got this for the rest of my life. I've got this I can participate in the game that I love. I can be there. I've got the best seat in the house when there's a great shot, you know, an awesome goal or a great save. I'm a goalkeeper. So I love the great saves, you know, I get to be right in the middle of it. So I think you would do a wonderful job and I think a lot of people would do a wonderful job and man if you can't run six miles, well, you know, there's, you know, under eight, soccer, you know, with a very little pitch. And man, they need referees too. And it is so stinking cute. So whatever you can do whatever you've got time for whether it's hockey, you know, or baseball or soccer, I'm telling you, if you can't commit to being on a team, because you know, you got to be at all those games BRF you can choose your schedule. It's a little extra spending money. It's a great mental diversion. It's a stress reliever, it's physical fitness, you're giving back to the game that's given us so much. I really want to encourage everyone to participate if they can. 

Matt Cundill  1:00:58  
Oh, keep it up David I love it. It's my one of my favorite channels and I'll always stop to watch what you're saying because I learned something every time so thank you very much.

David Gerson  1:01:07  
Man whether your your 20 year at the day you stop learning is the day you get old man. So it's just all about staying up to date and relevant with the times. I'm so so thankful that you reached out to me and we had this conversation. I'm so thankful that you enjoy the content. I really do appreciate this opportunity to come on your show.

Matt Cundill  1:01:25  
My thanks to David Gerson for joining me on the show. His podcast is called Refs Need Love Too and you can show some love by visiting his website and buying some of the amazing merch. There's even more to choose from if you're already thinking about becoming an official, or you already are one. This episode was produced by Evan Sieminski, edited by Aiden Glassey video production by Christy Pritchard, and it's all built with love from everyone at the Sound Off Media Company.